EDITORIAL: Legislation not the place for religious beliefs

Religion should be kept in church where it belongs and out of the classroom where it has no place. Dressing their particular religious beliefs up as science illustrates how dishonest these religious nuts are. Let them promote their religion all they want off campus, but they should not be allowed to hijack the schools to promote their particular religion.

Evolution is more than just a theory. The proof lies in our DNA. All flora and fauna contain common DNA, which demonstrates that all living things started from the same root. The DNA of humans and the other primates have an overwhelming majority of common DNA, which proves we have a common ancestor from which we have taken separate evolutionary paths. Likewise, differences in DNA among modern humans can be tracked demonstrating evolution in action in modern times, ie the development of blue eyes and lactose tolerance in adults.

The last thing the legislature should be doing is dictating what science is. That reeks of the Lysenkoism of Stalin's regime in which Lamarck's theory of evolution was dictated to be correct and those who disagreed were sent to the gulag. Or worse, such intrusion of religion into the public schools conjures up the Islamic world where the Koran is taught as fact in schools, modern inventions are traced back to suras, and scientists justify their theories by reference to the Koran. The result is a backward and ignorant society.

The legislature should defeat this attempt by religious nuts to hijack the schools and send them packing back to their pulpits.

"The result is a backward and ignorant society"

Your gross generalizations are getting old, Steve. Like you, old man.

Yes, letting religion take over the schools and/or society results in a backward and ignorant society, you cretinous young troglodyte. I invite you to present your argument to the contrary.

So you are saying the entire Islamic world is a backward and ignorant society? Because that's what you wrote. Are you saying that's a legitimate generalization, old man?

I propose a change to the Evolution Academic Freedom Act, which would allow scientists to go into any church and interrupt a sermon in order to give a lecture on Evolution. I call it the "Fair Play" amendment.

Yes, the Islamic world is a backward and ignorant society, largely because they have mentally hobbbled themselves with religion. However, I look forward to your argument that claims they are an advanced, tolerant, open society because of the pervasive influence of Islam in everything, you young and clueless dope.

Actually, your own favorite source makes my argument for me:
FOXNews.com - Survey: Muslims Around World Rejecting Islamic...

Before you go and say something completely ridiculous like "see, Western influence has helped these people advance and become more tolerant so they in themselves are still backward" take a closer look at those statistics and maybe you will figure out that the percentage of Muslims who support extremism was low in the first fuckin place.

"pervasive influence of Islam in everything"

Since you don't know anything about Islam except suicide bombers and terrorism, your statement doesn't make sense. Because if you DID know anything at all about Islamic society, you would use that statement to argue that Islam is predominantly a religion of peace and tolerance.

Well the link doesn't work so copy and paste the headline in the search box

Survey: Muslims Around World Rejecting Islamic Extremism

There is no such thing as "Muslim society." There are several societies that are dominated by Islam just as there are several societies dominated by other religions.

Instead of singling out one religion and generalizing, can we all agree that theocratic societies allowing legislation to be directed by religious zealots are typically stagnate and/or oppressive/repressive societies?

Your link connects to nothing, Jess, much like your argument. However, here is a link that does work that says 5 to 10% of Muslims support violent jihad:

How Many Islamists? - Daniel Pipes Blog

I see that you have replaced your devastating HELLO argument with "fuckin" to press your point home. Needless to say, the sheer brilliance of your rhetoric continues to dazzle me. Now, if you say fuckin HELLO, you will completely win over the cretin vulgarian demographic.

Of course, none of this crazed rebuttal of yours addresses your nonsensical defense of religion as appropriate in the public schools nor of Islam as a dead weight on the Muslim mind, particularly in school.

Actually, I know a good deal about Islam from those bookie things, from debate with Muslims, and through travel in Muslim countries. You, on the other, argue from ignorance. It's not just ordinary ignorance either, but a particularly aggressive ignorance which is painful to witness. Had you ever stood in a Cairo street and heard the call to prayer taken up by a dozen mosques, you would indeed appreciate the pervasive influence of Islam in such countries. You can't escape it. And if you bear the symbol of another religion, you are going to be in some real trouble on the street of a Muslim country.

However, to hammer home my point that Islam opposes science and strangles it, here is a link to an article that explains why and how that is:

ptonline.aip.org/...

Perhaps you can have somebody read it for you then explain it to you.

Harry Selby: "There is no such thing as "Muslim society." There are several societies that are dominated by Islam just as there are several societies dominated by other religions."

The Muslims disagree. They have a very keen sense of the umma, the Community of Believers which compose the diaspora of Muslims. They see themselves as very tightly connected by Islam.

Harry Selby: "Instead of singling out one religion and generalizing, can we all agree that theocratic societies allowing legislation to be directed by religious zealots are typically stagnate and/or oppressive/repressive societies?"

Finally, you make sense, Harry. Let's make it a habit, eh?

Jess Kaspar, here is your link which I have fished out of the ether:
FOXNews.com - Survey: Muslims Around World Rejecting Islamic...

However, dontcha think it hurts your point when the poll claims support for terror in Muslim countries has fallen from 40% to 20%? When a fifth of a country supports terror, that's quite a large number, one that hardly paints a moderate portrait, now does it? In fact, it paints a picture of a deeply violent society.

One might also remember that Bin Laden asserted that people support the strong horse. Muslims supported Bin Laden more strongly when he was killing Americans en masse. They tended to abandon him when he proved weak and drew American rage down upon Muslim countries. The Islamists who set doctrine are backtracking on their support for terrorism not because it is wrong in their eyes to kill people, but because it is self-defeating for Islam at the moment. They still support the jihad against the non-Muslim world, but want to wait until they have the advantage to start killing non-Muslims again.

"You, on the other, argue from ignorance. It's not just ordinary ignorance either, but a particularly aggressive ignorance which is painful to witness. Had you ever stood in a Cairo street and heard the call to prayer taken up by a dozen mosques, you would indeed appreciate the pervasive influence of Islam in such countries"

I am a Muslim, Steve, and I happen to be from Cairo.

Do you think I'm a terrorist?

Yep, I use more than one name, Nellie, Jess, whatever, except my real name, so now you know.

So do you have an actual point to make, Nellie? Perhaps you could explain why tourists to Egypt must be so heavily guarded, their hotels have metal detectors, every street and tourist site laden with heavily armed police behind armor plate?

And then you could explain what happenned at Luxor eleven years ago.

Tell me, Nellie, do you require an armed escort to travel around Ames? If you wear a headscarf, is there any threat of you being beaten by religious nuts? When's the last time a Muslim in Ames or Iowa or the USA been gunned down, mutilated, and a threatening note left tucked in their entrails?

When that's done, you could explain the positive or negative effect of Islam in the classroom.

Nellie Miller: "Do you think I'm a terrorist?"

To answer your question, I don't know. However, admitting that you are Muslim significantly increases the odds that you may be or support the Islamic jihad against America.

"If you wear a headscarf, is there any threat of you being beaten by religious nuts?"

No, but there is a threat of being beaten by hypernationalist Americans who think all Muslims are terrorists.

"So do you have an actual point to make, Nellie? Perhaps you could explain why tourists to Egypt must be so heavily guarded, their hotels have metal detectors, every street and tourist site laden with heavily armed police behind armor plate? "

Hmm. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the Western world exploits our (I use the term 'our' to mean Arabs and Muslims in the Middle East) natural resources? Maybe it's the fact that America is so far up Israel's ass that they can't see what Israel really does to the Palestinians? Maybe it's because Americans have an attitude toward anything that is not Christian or Western because their minds are closed to the virtues of other cultures? Maybe it's because America invaded Iraq without justification and killed over a million people while displacing 4 million, then when Americans hear those numbers they naturally deny it?

Or maybe it's the simple fact that Islamic extremists are relentless in their pursuits? I mean, I can understand why Americans hate Muslims. It's the same reason why people who don't live in America believe everyone there is a child molester, or a whore, or a gang member, or stupid. I totally see where you're coming from.

Steve, some Muslims can conceive of Ummah all they want but it doesn't make it a fact that there are Muslims all over the world who are members of different societies. Muslims in Indonesia don't belong to the same society as Muslims in Los Angeles (who belong to the same society as everyone else who lives in LA). Muslims in Saudi Arabia don't belong to the same society as Muslims in Amsterdam, etc.

One of the reasons you can't sustain your arguments is because you fail to understand that not every single Muslim in the world fits into your misunderstanding. You can't simply generalize and lump everyone into a single narrow category for the purposes of attacking.

There are millions of Muslims and only a small percentage are violent fundamentalists. Focus on the real problem.

Both you and Nellie are so prone to progaganda that you have absolutely no objectivity. Nellie is no more a terrorist than Steve is an abortion doctor assassin (probably). Not all Americans hate Muslims, Nellie, only right-wing nationalists and hard-line Christian and Jewish fundamentalists who refuse to educate themselves about reality. Both of you need to put down the propaganda and teach yourselves honestly.

"Nellie Kaspar," if have a fear of being "beaten by hypernationalist Americans," is there any sense trying to talk to you rationally? That is a racist statement if I have ever read one. Your angry statements are as, or more ignorant than anything posted by the likes of Mr. Gregg. To answer your question in one of your posts, no I do NOT believe you are a terrorist. I think you are just another pissed off person who takes themselves too damn seriously!

Nellie, answer this rationally please. You may be able to shed some light on this issue.

Why, if you are from Cairo, did you come to America in general and ISU in particular to study? I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that-international experiences and all that, but why leave your native Egypt, especially if you fear being "beaten by hypernationalist Americans"?

Craig,
Thank you for asking. My parents came here when I was little, so I am fully Americanized. I grew up in Iowa. I don't necessarily fear being beaten by hypernationalist Americans, I was just trying to get Steve Gregg to understand the fallacy of generalizations.

Nellie Miller: "I am a Muslim, Steve, and I happen to be from Cairo."

Nellie Miller, five minutes later: "My parents came here when I was little, so I am fully Americanized. I grew up in Iowa."

So which is it, Cairo or Iowa? Or is it Cairo, Iowa? When you begin your argument with a lie, nothing that follows can be believed.

Steve Gregg: "If you wear a headscarf, is there any threat of you being beaten by religious nuts?"

Nellie Miller: "No, but there is a threat of being beaten by hypernationalist Americans who think all Muslims are terrorists."

Pure fiction from a Muslim fabulist. There are plenty of documented cases of Muslim terror. Since the Sep 11 atrocities, Muslims have killed ten thousand people and wounded ninety thousand more in terror attacks:

TheReligionofPeace.com - Islam: Making a True Difference in ...

I challenge you to produce one documented case of a Muslim woman being beaten by "hypernationalist Americans" or any non-Muslim Americans in America. America is not Egypt or another such crudely intolerant Muslim country where you will be attacked for your religion. We are superior to that. The most likely people to beat a Muslim woman are fellow Muslims, specifically her husband, father, and brothers. For example, the Muslim man who beheaded his wife in Buffalo, New York two weeks ago:

Bridges TV, a Wife's Beheading, and Honor Murder - Daniel Pi...
Were Investors in "Bridges TV" Misled? - Daniel Pipes Blog

I might note that it is typical Muslim style of argumentation to never answer a question directly but instead to make slanderous accusations, the tu quoque type of fallacious argument.

Steve: "So do you have an actual point to make, Nellie? Perhaps you could explain why tourists to Egypt must be so heavily guarded, their hotels have metal detectors, every street and tourist site laden with heavily armed police behind armor plate? "

Nellie Miller: "Hmm. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the Western world exploits our (I use the term 'our' to mean Arabs and Muslims in the Middle East) natural resources?"

The real reason Western tourists must be heavily guarded in Egypt is that Islam is a crudely and murderously intolerant religion which kills non-Muslims.

The Western world has made the Arab world rich. We found the oil in the Middle East, we drilled it, pumped it, transported it, with the Arabs lifting nary a finger. Instead of conquering them, we made them our business partners and elevated them from bitter poverty to luxury beyond imagination. It is a measure of Muslim bigotry that they ignore all that and still claim they are being exploited and make war on us with the wealth derived from us.

Although Egypt has no oil, they still get two billion dollars in foreign aid from the US every year as a bribe to keep the peace in the Middle East. Egypt also reaps another two billion per year from the tourist trade from the West. Some exploitation. The wealth of the Middle East is derived from the West. The entire modern infrastructure of the Middle East is derived from the West. Every luxury and convenience present in the Middle East is derived from the West. And yet still Muslims cling desperately to their Islamic nonsense that somehow they are the victims and contrive grievances to justify their terror attacks on their benefactors simply because they are not Muslim.

Nellie Miller: "Maybe it's the fact that America is so far up Israel's ass that they can't see what Israel really does to the Palestinians?"

The Palestinians along with the rest of the Muslim world want to perpetrate another holocaust in Israel. Their imams tell the Palestinians that Israeli women are rightfully their sex slaves, that all Israeli property is booty for Muslims. They teach their kids to be suicide bombers when they grow up. They boast that their advantage is that they love death, while Israel and the West love life. There is nothing to admire about the Palestinians.

The entire Palestinian situation exists as an artifact of the Arab countries failed attempts to annihilate Israel. The Palestinian situation could be alleviated in a week if their alleged Muslim brothers took them in. However, as the Saudi King Fahd said, "Next to Jews, we hate Palestinians most."

Also, Israel is a democracy while Palestine is a dysfunctional tyranny run by Islamic mafias who steal almost all the UN aid money meant for Palestinians. Another good reason to support Israel.

Most of all, what the Muslims want to do to Israel is the same thing they want to do to the West to impose their despicable Islam on it. We rightfully oppose such Muslim aggression.

Nellie Miller: "Maybe it's because Americans have an attitude toward anything that is not Christian or Western because their minds are closed to the virtues of other cultures?"

What pure nonsense. America welcomes all the world and all cultures get along here. Meanwhile, Muslims are murderously intolerant of other cultures and ways of life, harassing, killing, and driving them out of their countries. You are projecting the Muslim intolerant attitude in error on to America. I might also point out that all the other cultures of the world have virtues which we admire. Islam brings mostly vices which we rightly despise, such as promoting religion through mass murder. That deserves our contempt.

Cultures such as the Indians and Chinese prize knowledge and produce many successful people worthy of our admiration. Muslim culture maintains a death grip on ignorance, producing tyrants and terrorists. We have seen Muslim "virtues" at work on Sep 11, in numerous train bombings throughout the world, disco bombings, and beheading videos. Its values are depraved and merit our rejection.

Nellie Miller: "Maybe it's because America invaded Iraq without justification and killed over a million people while displacing 4 million, then when Americans hear those numbers they naturally deny it?'

We deny those numbers because they are simply lies. The correct number is probably more around 90,000, with most of those Iraqis murdered by their fellow Muslim fanatics.

Iraq tried to assassinate ex-president Bush the elder, shot hundreds of missiles at our aircraft, put bounties on the death or capture of our military, maintained weapons of mass destruction, and disobeyed a dozen and a half UN resolutions. Any of those is a legitimate provocation for war.

And really, what do you care about dead Muslims? Saddam killed a million of them without a peep of protest from you. We stopped all that without a word of thanks from Muslim hypocrites like you.

Nellie Miller: "Or maybe it's the simple fact that Islamic extremists are relentless in their pursuits? I mean, I can understand why Americans hate Muslims. It's the same reason why people who don't live in America believe everyone there is a child molester, or a whore, or a gang member, or stupid. I totally see where you're coming from."

For someone supposedly totally Americanized, you're quite a hater of America. However, that's not unusual among American Muslims, who consider themselves Muslims first and foremost, only weakly identifying with their countries of residence. It's also not surprising when you consider most American mosques have been radicalized, teaching their congregations to hate America:

www.jpost.com/...
www.unitedstatesaction.com/...

What you Muslims can do to earn our respect is to tear out the hateful half of your Koran, the Medina suras which demand you conquer the Earth and convert, subdue, or kill all non-Muslims. In other words, the part of the Koran which promotes terror as good. Focus on the Mecca suras which kinda preach peace and tolerance. Give up your insane idea of replacing our democracy with a Sharia totalitarian state where Muslims rule and we are your subjects. Stop building bombs to kill your American neighbors. Stop shooting them and running them over in your car for Islam, too.

It wouldn't hurt to build a university or hospital, either. All the other major religions have, the ones that don't form terror cells in their houses of worship. And it would be nice to hear an "Allah bless America" from time to time. The fact that we never hear that tells us something about you and your religion.

Cameron Scott: "Your angry statements are as, or more ignorant than anything posted by the likes of Mr. Gregg."

I invite you to rebut any of the positions I have taken and prove they are the product of ignorance. In fact, I hold that the situation is quite the reverse, that your politically correct position is the product of ignorance, that you have not researched this subject at all, and that you argue from your own unexamined prejudices. Worse yet, you are afflicted with the true believer disease of the Left, that anyone who disagrees with you is ignorant, even though you know nothing yourself but the lefty bumper stickers. It is an intellectually sterile approach.

Harry Selby: "Steve, some Muslims can conceive of Ummah all they want but it doesn't make it a fact that there are Muslims all over the world who are members of different societies. Muslims in Indonesia don't belong to the same society as Muslims in Los Angeles (who belong to the same society as everyone else who lives in LA). Muslims in Saudi Arabia don't belong to the same society as Muslims in Amsterdam, etc."

In fact, Harry, all Muslims believe they are part of the ummah, the worldwide community of Muslims. Whether you believe it or not is immaterial. This does not mean that all Muslims are terrorists. You are conflating two different assertions and garbling them, as is so often the case with you.

Harry Selby: "There are millions of Muslims and only a small percentage are violent fundamentalists. Focus on the real problem."

It's true that only a small percentage of Muslims are terrorists or active terrorist sympathizers, ie Islamists, about 5 to 10%. That is a staggering figure. Another large fraction of the Muslim population are passive supporters of terrorism. That makes them uniquely different from the other major religions, which do not crash jumbo jets into skyscrapers, blow up trains and discos, nor produce beheading videos. Even one out of a thousand terrorists is an unacceptable ratio.

Harry Selby: "Both you and Nellie are so prone to progaganda that you have absolutely no objectivity. Nellie is no more a terrorist than Steve is an abortion doctor assassin (probably). Not all Americans hate Muslims, Nellie, only right-wing nationalists and hard-line Christian and Jewish fundamentalists who refuse to educate themselves about reality. Both of you need to put down the propaganda and teach yourselves honestly."

There is a problem with Islam which you simply deny. It is not propaganda as you foolishly claim to note that Muslims are perpetrating a worldwide campaign of terrorism. It is nuts to deny it. Those religions which perpetrate such violence deserve criticism.

What if Pat Robertson began preaching warfare against all other religions and rival protestant sects? What if his Christian fundamentalists began hijacking jets and crashing them into Mecca? What if his followers started gunning down Presbyterians as apostates to the true faith, bombing discos as dens of evil, and planting bombs on trains around the world? Would you be tut-tutting that and saying that it is beyond criticism? Of course not, you'd be all over it with the most vehement criticism.

Simply put, your position is the product of fuzzy-wuzzy lefty multiculturalism that makes excuses for terror. It is a soft form of bigotry in its way.

// But not from wearing miniskirts and fucking every guy I see like American girls do //

God Bless America

"In fact, Harry, all Muslims believe they are part of the ummah, the worldwide community of Muslims. Whether you believe it or not is immaterial. This does not mean that all Muslims are terrorists. You are conflating two different assertions and garbling them, as is so often the case with you."--Steve Gregg

Wow. The way you can pretend like I said something completely different and then criticize it is amazing. I never claimed Muslims didn't consider themselves part of the Ummah. I simply stated that not all Muslims (just like not all people) live in the same SOCIETY. I guess you just don't understand the definition of the word SOCIETY. I am a part of the community of human beings but that doesn't mean I am a member of the same society as someone who lives in Tokyo.

"It's true that only a small percentage of Muslims are terrorists or active terrorist sympathizers, ie Islamists, about 5 to 10%. That is a staggering figure."

Where is your EVIDENCE?

"It is not propaganda as you foolishly claim to note that Muslims are perpetrating a worldwide campaign of terrorism. It is nuts to deny it."

There you go with the sweeping generalizations again. That's nuts! Tell us how Mohammad Ali and Kareem-Abdul Jabbar are perpetrating a worldwide campaign of terrorism. Tell us how poor Muslim peasants in a remote village in Indonesia are perpetrating a worldwide campaign of terrorism.

What is foolish is to define millions based on a few. Pure ignorance. You really are a propaganda sponge.

"What if Pat Robertson began preaching warfare against all other religions and rival protestant sects?"

Then I would say that Pat Robertson and his followers were violent extreme fundamentalists (as it stands now only the word "violent" doesn't apply). I would not say that all Christians were such nor would I say all members of his denomination were such.

I judge people on their behavior not on the behavior of those with which they may be associated.

"Simply put, your position is the product of fuzzy-wuzzy lefty multiculturalism that makes excuses for terror. It is a soft form of bigotry in its way."--Steve Gregg

You just throw out pejoratives without really knowing their definitions don't you?

An example of a bigot is someone who condemns people because of their religion. Like you do.

As childish as Nellie's farewell was, at least she destroyed Steve's reading comprehension skills and his ignorant challenge to prove anti-Muslim violence.

Here is some more for Steve to ignore:

"(Fairfax-AP) -- Police are investigating as an apparent bias crime an attack on a Muslim woman who said she was stabbed and called a terrorist outside a shopping mall in Fairfax."
Police investigating attack on Muslim woman as hate crime

"(UIC Today) (U-WIRE) CHICAGO -- Last Wednesday at 3 p.m., an unidentified 5-foot-11-inch male attacked a female Muslim student at the University of Illinois-Chicago near the cross section of Morgan and Taylor Streets. The man focused his attack on her hijab, grabbing the headdress from her back. His force also pulled her scarf back, choking her in the process."
Attack on Muslim woman not a trend | Article from University...

"MATINECOCK, New York: An Iranian-American nail salon owner was brutalized by robbers who called her a "terrorist" and scrawled anti-Muslim messages on a mirror in her shop, the victim and police said."
Police probe anti-Muslim attack at Long Island salon; woman ...

"Muslim Attacked By Men Shouting Racist Slurs: Pregnant woman in Islamic dress assaulted, called 'terrorist b*tch'"
OfficialWire: Press Release Distribution, News, Opinion

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I wish that the moderator had left Nellie's comment up so that I could answer it. I considered it something of a softball pitch.

I wish that the moderator had left Nellie's comment up so that I could answer it. I considered it something of a softball pitch.

Yet you struck out.

She defeated you and your challenge by providing links to documented cases of anti-Muslim violence by nationalistic Americans after 9/11. You really ought to pause before you type something and remember that we all know how to do basic research.

Oh, and Nellie also called attention to your inability to understand her point:

Nellie Miller: "I am a Muslim, Steve, and I happen to be from Cairo."

Nellie Miller, five minutes later: "My parents came here when I was little, so I am fully Americanized. I grew up in Iowa."

Steve Gregg: So which is it, Cairo or Iowa? Or is it Cairo, Iowa? When you begin your argument with a lie, nothing that follows can be believed.

So she didn't lie, Steve, you just didn't understand. She was born in Cairo, Egypt and moved to Iowa when she was little.

How many times are you gonna wiff at a girl's softball pitch?

Steve there is a Cairo, IL, but Nellie/Jess's comment's are those of a person who seems to have issues that should not be worked out on a college newspaper's message boards. Don't feed those issues, or contempt, and be the bigger person and let it go...

Harry, it's always amusing to hear you falsely claim that your side won an argument. It's the typical lefty rhetorical fallacy of argument by assertion, claiming you won the argument and so no more discussion is warranted. Al Gore does it better than you ("THE DEBATE IS OVER!"), but you're well on your way to being a fine campus demagogue yourself.

I glanced over Nellie's sources for her exaggerated claims that Muslims were suffering attacks due to their religion and found them unconvincing. Almost all of them were from Muslim organizations which lie far too much to be believed. Many of them I recognized as front organizations for the Muslim Brotherhood or the Wahhabi lobby or both who are engaged in the soft jihad of propagandizing for Islam in concert with the terrorists sponsored by the same who wage the hard jihad.

For example, CAIR has been engaged in a campaign to cook up bogus hate crimes which don't pass casual inspection, such as claiming that a Koran found in a public toilet is a hate crime: CAIR, FBI at odds over hate crimes
In another case, CAIR claimed it was a hate crime when somebody trampled the flower bed of a mosque in Texas: IBDeditorials.com: Editorials, Political Cartoons, and Polls...

It should be remembered that lying is part of Islam, which maintains a doctrine of taqiyya, deception to advance the faith. These Muslim organizations like CAIR are practicing that taqiyya, funded by Saudi petrodollars, the same petrodollars which funded the Sep 11 attacks.

The one statistic Nellie offered that was believable was a 2008 figure from the FBI which said Muslims had been victims of hate crimes over 200 times. The FBI Hate Crime Statistics (Table 1 - Hate Crime Statistics 2007) for 2007 show 115 anti-Islamic hate crimes, roughly double the hate crimes against Catholics or Protestants. That sounds like a believable figure.

Out of a US population of 306 million, that comes to one anti-Muslim hate crime per 2.6 million people. However, let's adjust that, assuming that hate crimes are only committed by males from ages 15 to 44 who comprise 21% of the population or 64 million, that's one anti-Muslim hate crime per 558,782 able adult men. That low statistic tells me that anti-Muslim hate crimes are trivial in number and that the Muslim claims of violent oppression are dishonest hyperbole, ie taqiyya.

Assuming there are one million Muslims in the US, that means that the average Muslim can expect to be the victim of a hate crime every 8695 years, almost three millenia longer than recorded history. That means that if an American Muslim would have to wait from the Bronze Age until now to be attacked in America for his/her religion. Assuming the average life expectancy is 78 years, that means the average American Muslim would have to wait 111 lifetimes to be attacked in America.

While Muslims suffered 115 hate crimes, Jews suffered 969, eight times as many, suffering more than two thirds of all hate crimes. Adjusting for population, that probably means that Jews are victims of hate crimes three times as often as Muslims. I wonder who is attacking them?

All the hate crimes against Muslims involved only assaults and intimidation, no murders. That hardly stacks up against the 2998 innocent victims Muslims killed in the Sep 11 attacks, the biggest hate crime in American history, and the 6291 they wounded, many of whom remain horribly maimed and burned. They are still finding bits of bone from victims at the site of the former World Trade Center in manholes and on the tops of nearby buildings. The Muslim claims of victimhood are intended to distract from their own history of murderous religious bigotry, turning the truth on its head. Muslims are the victimizers, not the victims.

I glanced over Nellie's sources for her exaggerated claims that Muslims were suffering attacks due to their religion and found them unconvincing.--Steve Gregg

Of course. That's because you refuse to believe anything you don't want to believe.

And, as usual, you attack the source rather than the substance. Both Nellie and I provided what you claimed did not exist: documented cases of hate-crimes against Muslims by Americans. These cases are reported by reputable news organizations and persued by law enforcement. You have failed to debunk any of the claims you promised us didn't exist.

While Muslims suffered 115 hate crimes--Steve Gregg

So you acknowledge that there are anti-Muslim hate crimes. That's not what you suggested earlier. So instead of admitting error you are trying to change the subject by fudging with numbers and attacking Muslim groups that try to fight against anti-Muslim hate crimes.

All the hate crimes against Muslims involved only assaults and intimidation, no murders.--Steve Gregg

Well, then, I guess that means there's no problem. It's okay so long as no one is killed.

Muslims are the victimizers, not the victims.--Steve Gregg

Some Muslims are victimizers and some Muslims are victims. Just like some non-Muslims are victimizers and some non-Muslims are victims.

Your problem, Steve, is that you think in biased and sweeping generalizations rather than arriving at your beliefs based on evidence and objective reality. You don't even try!

Nice job, Steve. The fact you have harry attacking you and not the evidence and arguments you make proves THE DEBATE IS OVER! YOU WON!

Oh, sorry, only liberals get to say "the debate is over". It usually comes right after they realize they lost, but still, they are the only ones who can say it and since i am not a liberal my first amendment rights don't allow me to say that.

WOW.

Steve, you have some SERIOUS issues. I have never in my life encountered someone so utterly ignorant and uneducated. You should seek out counseling, immediately.

Harry, you shouldn't even respond to this guy. Stop feeding him.

boldJason Hines: "I have never in my life encountered someone so utterly ignorant and uneducated."

Of course you have, Jason, every morning when you look in the mirror. And you have some serious issues in arguing your case. Seek out an education, immediately.

Harry Selby: "And, as usual, you attack the source rather than the substance.

The Muslim sources which Nellie cites and you defend are not credible for the reasons I cited, reasons you fear to address. CAIR and company are perpetrating taqiyya in service of the jihad as clients of the Saudi Wahhabis, our enemies. And I have actually demonstrated the substance is false, giving two examples of phonied hate crimes by CAIR. Did you read my post, Harry, or do you have some kind of Lefty Boilerplate Rebuttal software you use to make your replies?

Harry Selby: "Both Nellie and I provided what you claimed did not exist: documented cases of hate-crimes against Muslims by Americans. These cases are reported by reputable news organizations and persued by law enforcement. You have failed to debunk any of the claims you promised us didn't exist."

To be picky, you did not produce any evidence that these crimes were perpetrated by hypernationalist Americans, as Nellie claimed. However, I will concede that some Muslims are attacked for their religion, though a trivial number. At the same time, Muslims are attacking Jews and Americans in terror attacks and foiled terror attacks.

Harry Selby: "Some Muslims are victimizers and some Muslims are victims. Just like some non-Muslims are victimizers and some non-Muslims are victims".

Some Muslims are victimizers, many Muslims are passively supportive of the victimizers, and most of the rest are indifferent to the fate of the victims of Muslims. After all, there was no great negative response to the Sep 11 attacks from American Muslims. The first Muslims to see the towers burning in New York cheered and celebrated.

Harry Selby: "Your problem, Steve, is that you think in biased and sweeping generalizations rather than arriving at your beliefs based on evidence and objective reality. You don't even try!"

Your problem, Harry, is that your politically correct bias is so entrenched that you think any reality which intrudes on it must be biased and sweeping generalizations. You're an intellectually lazy guy.

I have an extensive academic background, Steve. I speak four languages, including Arabic, am a post-doc in Political Science, and have been doing research projects in foreign countries. How's that for an education? I feel obligated to inform you that no one in the real world will ever take you seriously if you continue to behave this way.

I am shocked that someone who is no longer in high school (you are not in high school, are you? If so, my apologies) would make such incredible generalizations and unbelievable accusations against a group of human beings simply because of their religious beliefs.

You are dangerous, Steve Gregg, in the sense that your attitude mirrors that of Adolf Hitler when he set out on his hate-filled quest against the Jewish people.

Do you have any inkling whatsoever of the Arabic language? Perhaps you could spell 'taqiyya' in Arabic. Or do you mean 'taqwa?' Because I am pretty sure there is no such Arabic word as 'taqiyya,' so perhaps you could provide a source for this 'taqiyya' you speak of?

Ah, I see this 'taqiyya' you are talking about. تقية

Problem is, it is only called 'lying' on propaganda sites like ISLAM-WATCH DOT ORG. I am sure you could find all kinds of Jewish conspiracies on JEW-WATCH DOT ORG, too.

Even if some Muslims believe in this تقية business, by no means does this mean that all Muslims, or even most Muslims, or even a good number of Muslims, do.

Furthermore, those Muslims who DO believe in this taqiyya are further split into interpretative groups, of which ONLY SOME Muslims wrongly interpret taqiyya to mean what you claim it means.

The Muslim sources which Nellie cites and you defend are not credible for the reasons I cited, reasons you fear to address.

I cited the Associated Press. TWice. Police investigating attack on Muslim woman as hate crime
Police probe anti-Muslim attack at Long Island salon; woman ...

I cited a wire report received by the University of Illiois Chicago. Attack on Muslim woman not a trend | Article from University...

So please stop misleading people with your lies. You refuse to believe what you don't want to believe so you dismiss things out of hand.

Furthermore, you failed to prove that CAIR or any other organization fabricated anything Nellie posted.

Just becuase you say it doesn't make it so.

To be picky, you did not produce any evidence that these crimes were perpetrated by hypernationalist Americans, as Nellie claimed. However, I will concede that some Muslims are attacked for their religion

Thanks for doing so. And we both provided eveidence that these crimes were perpetrated by hypernationalistic Americans.

For example: "One of them was just beating me up with a stick, and the other one was cutting," Assemi, who said she is a naturalized American citizen, told WNBC. She said the attackers cursed her, called her a "terrorist" and told her to "go back to your country."
Police probe anti-Muslim attack at Long Island salon; woman ...

Nellie's post was deleted so I can't find her links. But it wouldn't take too long to find plenty of cases of anti-Muslim crimes fueled by an irrational hatred of people who are Muslims by hypernationalistic Americans (just like hypernationalistic French people attack Algerians, etc.).

After all, there was no great negative response to the Sep 11 attacks from American Muslims.

Untrue example of a sweeping generalization that we're just supposed to believe because you wrote it.

Here is a full-page ad by CAIR in the Washington Post on 9/16/2001 denouncing the attacks.
CAIR Full Page Advertisement

On 9/18/2001: "In the Arab-American community, leaders denounce the attacks"
Arab-American Leaders Denounce Attacks

The first Muslims to see the towers burning in New York cheered and celebrated.

The first American Muslims to see the towers burn in New York were inside of them. What other American Muslims were cheering at the time?

You're an intellectually lazy guy

And yet I'm the guy who provides the evidence and spends time refuting your unsupported claims.

Oh, and by the way Steve, using World Net Daily to attack CAIR as a source is like using quotes from Hitler to denounce authoritarianism.

"One does not believe in a scientific theory."
Oh really?

it is merely a way for those who don’t “believe” in evolution, without reprimand or punishment, to call into question the science of the prevailing — for nearly 150 years now — scientific theory of how humans came into being.

Are you for reprimanding those that disagree with you? What's wrong with questioning the THEORY of Evolution? What's wrong with questioning the belief that Earth was flat and the center of the universe? What's wrong with questioning the belief of global warming. Oops, sorry, we're not allowed to do that. Now I will be reprimanded.